I love epiphanies and I hate them. Well, not the epiphanies specifically, but sometimes the feelings that accompany them. I love them because they offer a sudden moment of understanding, a moment of clarity. However, those moments are usually followed by something like, “Well, damn, was I ever off the mark about …” A comment that Amber left with several links gave me exactly those two feelings. For those of you who decide not to follow the link to her comment, it was in reply to a mention of Robert Jensen, author of Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity. Amber and some other women aren’t so happy with Robert, and for good reason. I’m not writing this to talk about him, though. I’m writing this because I’ve made a mistake and I want to acknowledge it so others don’t have to make the same error.
First, I’ve been on the fence about sex work, including prostitution, pornography, and stripping for as long as I can remember. I’ve supported the women who’ve been involved, but largely thought these professions were problematic and supported the patriarchy. My reasoning was that these professions are there because they rely on the objectification of women. So, even if women were willing to do the work, it didn’t matter: They were harming other women by encouraging the objectification of women. How, you ask? Well, objectification is essential for violence against women. Seeing a woman as an object and not a person facilitates violence against them.
Now I’m thinking: Seriously? That’s fucked up.
I can understand if someone wants to argue that objectification is a problem when it comes to serious issues like violence against women. I get that. There are two problems with what I was pushing, though. First, violence against women is a problem perpetuated by men. Asserting that women’s behaviour, profession, and so on contributes to this problem is WAY too close to victim blaming for me to be comfortable saying that anymore. Oh right, because it is victim blaming, and I’m pretty damn embarrassed that I was saying that shit.
The second problem? Well, I don’t know how many of you have noticed, but I’m male, which means I’m part of a dominant group that’s been responsible for the oppression of women for thousands of years. In other words, who am I (or any other man) to tell women what they should or should not be doing? If I want to be a feminist and support women, silencing them and telling them what they’re doing is supporting the patriarchy is pretty damn close to the last thing I should be doing. That goes for Robert and any other men who see that as a good idea, too. Those ideas have held me captivated for far too long, and I think it’s time other men realise the harm they’re doing, as well.
Just so it’s out there, though, I’m completely aware that sometimes women do this kind of work because they lack other options or see it as the only available option. Don’t think I support that in any way. That’s why I think it’s important to help those women by providing them with resources they need and give them choice.
I’m sorry for the damage I’ve done by pushing these arguments for as long as I have. I am learning, though, and again, I hope this serves as a learning opportunity for other men. As I’ve said before, I will screw up, for whatever reasons, be it that I’m in a privileged person, that I’m human, or whatever. I’m open to new ideas, though, and I’m willing to challenge whatever biases I have.
On that note, though, I want to publicly thank Amber for bringing this (now obvious) issue to my attention. I think my realisation was probably bound to happen eventually, but the sooner, the better. If you haven’t checked out her blog, you should, and put it in your RSS feed while you’re at it. She’s become one of my favourite bloggers to read and she seems to have the patience to put up with my bullshit! (I’ve posted anti-porn links in the past and she was quick to inform me how harmful those arguments can be to women.)
Anyway, I’ve come to an understanding on what is still a contentious issue in the feminist community: I am most definitely pro-prostitution, pro-porn, pro-sex work; and that brings me one step closer to being pro-woman.
July 1, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Aw shucks, Derek. You made me blush.
And please, if it’s “bullshit” I’m putting up with from you, then my radar must be off. I should TELL you some of the things I’ve put up with!
Anyway, I’m glad the links I provided were helpful, and I’m glad you’re thinking about these issues rather than just reflexively spouting an accepted stereotype, which is, sadly, what I see from far too many people, including self-identified progressives and feminists.
For me, whenever a discussion of sex workers rights comes up and people start talking about how they’re “uncomfortable” with sex work or don’t want to “legitimize” it or what-have-you, what it always comes back to for me is -well, I’ll just quote myself, ’cause I’m lazy. From this post…
Thanks again for the nice words, Derek. It made me feel better after what was a rather shitty day.
July 2, 2008 at 5:35 pm
[...] This epiphany is brought to you by sex worker’s rights « Doing Feminism I’m blushing now. (tags: sexwork rights sexworkersrights blogging feminism women men privilege) [...]
July 3, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Kudos to you for having the guts and the courage to introspect and make such a determination.
BTW, Those who claim that voluntary prostitution (and other forms of sex work) is a by-product of patriarchal oppression are those who A) have never been sex workers, and B) have no idea what they’re talking about and seek to impose their own viewpoint on the situation as opposed to listening to those of us who freely engage in such activities. What do we know, right?
Anyway, it is always awesome to see someone come to a better understanding of these kinds of subjects.
July 4, 2008 at 10:01 am
Hello Derek,
You’ve certainly made some interesting points.
I can understand if you, as an individual, have changed your mind about prostitution and related things and don’t want to get involved in the controversy. But saying that men, as such, because they share a chromosomal shape with many evil people in the past, should not contribute their views on how women can liberate themselves is sexist.
It’s like saying that whites should not offer their assistance, including the products of their minds, in helping blacks fight racism, or that people in the U.S. and Canada shouldn’t offer ideas to governments, NGOs, human rights activists and others in the Third World on how to better their conditions.
You may be right in that prostitution, stripping, porn acting and similar work can help fight, and would flourish even after the elimination of, sexism and male oppression. You could be right in that the abuses of people who do these things (including literal slavery), by clients, employers and others, would be radically reduced or even eliminated if those occupations were legalized.
But it’s not exactly a slam-dunk. How many voluntary prostitutes and similar workers were abused, including sexually, as little girls, and made to feel that letting their bodies be used for sex was the only way they could be worth anything? Let’s say no one forced them to go into those occupations…heck, let’s say they approached employers on their own and no one would stop them if they quit any time. Are you sure their decisions to do this kind of thing are really voluntary?
I’m sure there are some who, like (as far as I can tell) Alexa, who love what they do and flourish in their chosen occupations. How many of them would we still have in a generation or two if child and teen sexual abuse were eliminated?
In that regard, you may want to read http://rmott62.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/thoughts-on-choice/ - I found it at http://abyss2hope.blogspot.com/2008/07/carnival-against-sexual-violence-50.html (July 1, 2008 Carnival Against Sexual Violence).
With regards to victim-blaming, you are quite right. Unfortunately, victim-blaming is quite prevalent in U.S. society, even on things having nothing to do with sex. For example, if someone’s bike or notebook is stolen, some people may ask if the victim left it in a safe place and secured it. I remember visiting a new city and being bullied briefly by a couple of people I didn’t know from a hole in the wall. I came home and told my mother about it and she asked me if I was sure I hadn’t done or said anything to provoke them.
The next question is whether it’s always wrong to prohibit activities because they may make some people want to commit crimes, including against the people who do these activities. It gets a little murkier when you consider that some of the crimes are against people who are like those who participate, but not actual participants.
There is a correlation between patronizing strippers, porn and similar work and having certain attitudes about sexual violence. I somehow doubt that there isn’t, in turn, a correlation between having those attitudes and committing certain acts, such as domestic or partner abuse, sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual abuse and rape. The idea being spread is that women’s wishes don’t matter, or that they come to enjoy being abused and raped. Not just the specific women who strip, or act in porn movies, or sell themselves, but women in general.
These are tough questions. You, Derek, may think you have the answers. I sure as heck don’t, even after a good deal of thought on the issue. Right now, as far as policy goes I’m willing to keep prostitution legal on a regulated basis, in sanctioned brothels, and maybe also by licensed professionals who do incalls or outcalls on their own. Some forms of porn should also be legal but regulated (I’m still trying to decide whether digital images of children - when no actual children are used - should be allowed in porn), and so should stripping.
Last but not least, Derek, whatever the issue and whatever your stance, I admire people who are willing to change their minds and say publicly that they think they had been wrong before. Good for you!
Happy Fourth to those who celebrate it,
Jeff Deutsch
jeff_deutsch@hotmail.com
July 5, 2008 at 3:18 am
If you are pro-prostitution and pro-porn then you are a racist, woman-hater. You are not a feminist.
http://s100980402.onlinehome.us/porn.pdf (Black Women and Porn)
http://s100980402.onlinehome.us/defining.pdf (Defining Prostitution-Slave Mentality)
http://www.annebissell.com/ Anne Bissell is a survivor of the sex industry
http://rmott62.wordpress.com/ Rebecca is another survivor and friend
These are the voices you silence when you talk of prostitution as being a pro-woman choice. But you are a probable rapist and I should expect no better.
July 5, 2008 at 8:35 am
That’s a red herring. How many WOMEN in our society were abused? You know the stat, right - 1 in 4? Yet, you never hear people invoking the “they were abused!” line as a way to impose victim status on workers in other types of jobs. The whole thing reeks of removing agency. Do you really want to commit to a position that removes a woman’s agency because she has a abuse in her past? If her “yes” is meaningless then so is her “no.” And that’s a VERY dangerous place to go - and most certainly not a feminist place.
July 8, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Hello Amber,
Thank you very much for your response.
First off, I see that you’re very proud of your pole dancing. You certainly should be. I don’t know if you do it for your boyfriend, but if you do I’m sure it’s good for your relationship.
Wrt “the stat” - you might be right, but could I see a source or two, please? Among other considerations, how do you correct for underreporting - and know that you’re not overshooting or undershooting the mark?
The reason my support for legalizing (under regulation) some types of sex work is less than enthusiastic is this:
Other types of jobs don’t call on women to replicate what some of them were forced to do as girls or young women. I’m sure you’ll agree that child and teen sexual abuse, sexual assault and rape carve deep furrows in one’s psyche. As you no doubt know, some victims grow up feeling worthless, or rather worthless unless they’re using their bodies for strangers to enjoy.
That’s why I think it’s very important to know what proportion of sex workers were sexually abused or raped. If it’s a high percentage, then we might wonder what kind of free choice it is when so many of those who do it went through the horror and torture. I’m not saying we must conclude that it’s not free choice, but it’s still a question we should ask.
As for removing a woman’s agency - do you favor or oppose mandatory domestic assault arrest laws (which require that police called to a domestic disturbance arrest the suspected abuser before they leave - even if the other person begs them not to)?
(Incidentally, everything I’ve said applies to men, too.)
Have a good day,
Jeff Deutsch
jeff_deutsch@hotmail.com
July 8, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Your tone is so ridiculously condescending, Jeff, that I really have nothing to say to you at this time.
July 10, 2008 at 2:06 pm
I’m new to this blog. I’ve just read this post and comment thread, and followed all the links I could. I found nothing about pole dancing in any context, let alone Amber.
In that light, this sentence “First off, I see you’re very proud of your pole dancing” reeks. it tells me the sort of thing the author does when he’s on the losing side of an argument: he resorts to shaming. In this case, slut-shaming. If it were me, a man, you were losing to, what would you try to shame me with? Being a pervert? A wimp?
July 10, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Jeffrey,
I’ll address your points in the near future, as I’m a bit pressed for time at the moment.
allecto,
It is very important for me as a feminist not to silence any women and certainly not to subscribe to any racist ideas. On that note, can you please explain to me why you feel this way? If the links answer my question, you needn’t bother, as I’ll get to reading them shortly.
It should be noted, too, that I wouldn’t have published your comment if it was directed at anyone else. Violence against women is something I strive to end, not something I perpetuate. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think it’s important to be cautious when throwing such strong accusations around.
On that note, due to some of the comments, I think it’s time for me to update my comment policy.
July 11, 2008 at 5:48 am
Allecto,
I reject these black and white statements. I am a feminist and I am pro-decriminalization and pro-destigmatization BECAUSE I am pro-woman. Criminalization and stigmatization hurt women in the sex industry. And first and foremost, I believe in listening to sex workers themselves and what they say they need, rather than “experts” who exploit these women for their own ends. Some posts at Ren’s might clear this up for you. No time to do links right now as I have to run to work, but check out her posts about Gail Dines, Stop Porn Culture, Robert Jensen, Melissa Farley, NoPornNorthHampton, and more. These people do not just have a “different opinion,” they are perpetuating DANGEROUS CONDITIONS for women.
July 11, 2008 at 9:47 am
And I will say too (shouldn’t HAVE to be said, but all too often these assumptions are made, so I’ll say it) that listening to sex workers means listening to ALL sex workers, whatever their experience. This includes women like Rebecca. Here voice should not be silenced, and neither should any other sex worker’s. It’s about acknowledging that sex workers are PEOPLE, and as such have a wide variety of experiences and there is not a one-size-fits-all profile of a sex worker - whether as victim, patriarchy-enabler, or whatever else.
July 11, 2008 at 9:47 am
Not sure why my gravatar didn’t show up in that last comment, but that’s me.
July 14, 2008 at 9:15 am
[...] on what NOT to do, pay attention to how that guy Jeffrey Deutsch addressed me in the comments on Derek’s post about sex worker’s rights. Big ol’ FAIL stamp [...]
July 14, 2008 at 6:19 pm
late to the conversation and all, here via Amber…and wow…
First off, Jeffery- your comment about Amber’s pole dancing and her “doing it for her boyfriend” is horrible, I just thought I’d share. Not every woman who takes a pole dancing class because her man enjoys it. It’s great exercise, and probably more fun than running or step aerobics…ever tried it? Somehow I doubt it, so I guess you would not know. Funny that.
And yep, I’m that mythical sex worker who wasn’t abused, raped, or sexually molested and has, holy crap, other options and stuff. And I know others like me oddly enough. However, with regards to the popular stats, like Farley’s for instance? Well, her research was done on some 200 street prostitutes in California, and brother workers in Turkey I believe. However, her numbers are applies to all sex workers. Now, Farley never studied or included strippers, porn performers, higher end prostitutes or professional BDSM performers, yet, they are applied to those people. I don’t see how in any way that can be considered sound or applicable.
And yep, Amber’s right. When I sit around hearing people like Gail Dines saying that No matter what, no matter her opinon on the matter, or her consent, or any other thing she says about it, any and every woman who has ever been in pornography was raped her first time on set? That engrages me. No one, No One, has a right to tell any person when they have been raped or when they have not. And as far as my complaints go with that crowd, well, that’s just the tip of the iceberg, really.
Sure, sexworkers can use allies, but they don’t need saviors who fail to see them as human in their own right.
July 15, 2008 at 9:59 am
Hello Amber (and whomever else it may concern),
First off, I am genuinely sorry that you took my comment on pole dancing the way you did. I intended it as an honor, having checked out your website and seen your acknowledgement of pole dancing. It’s clear from the way you talked about it, as well as your MySpace photo (you link to your MySpace page from your website), that you’re proud of it. As well you should be. At least in my opinion, and presumably in yours, pole dancing is just as artistic as ballroom, disco or any other form of dancing.
So, I am sorry for having delivered what I considered - and continue to consider - to have been a compliment. Therefore, I retract it.
I respectfully suggest that in a few place, you and others may not have remembered to take your advice above to “LISTEN. Read, re-read, and re-read again. Think and process. Take time to really think before you speak/type”:
* If you’ll check carefully, you’ll notice that not only did I say that you certainly should be proud of your pole dancing, but also “I don’t know if you do it for your boyfriend [whom you mentioned on your website as well -JD], but if you do I’m sure it’s good for your relationship.” [Emphases added]
I thought that made it perfectly clear that I was not assuming that you do it for him. I know that some women do, and they like it in part precisely because it’s a way to express themselves sexually. I did not assume that you were one of them, but rather offering a contingent compliment in case you were. That, too, I take back.
I certainly hope you’re not offended at the very idea that you do things specifically to please your boyfriend. You (Amber, that is) seem much too mature to think you can have everything about you, all the time, and still have a relationship worthy of the name. I’m sure he does things specifically for you, and vice versa. I was suggesting that he would be pleased if pole dancing was one of the latter. That contingent compliment I also take back.
* Wrt sex workers, please note that I made clear in both my comments that I support legalizing at least some aspects of sex work (specifically, some forms of prostitution, porn and stripping). I raise the concerns about consent because they make me uneasy about the position that I share with you, and I hoped you had given those concerns some thought. I’m sure you’ll agree that having concerns about a position is not the same as not agreeing with it.
(That having been said, even if I had disagreed entirely that sex work should be legalized, your and others’ responses would still have been uncalled-for.)
* Please note that I also specifically said in my second comment “That’s why I think it very important to know what proportion of sex workers were sexually abused or raped. If it’s a high percentage…”. [Emphases added] That should make it clear that I do not assume that every sex worker was raped or sexually abused, and I’m not even sure just how many were.
RenegadeEvolution, I am not using Farley’s statistics. As I wrote above, I think the question needs to be asked and more research done. It should be clear that I myself have not yet drawn any conclusions.
Amber, you referred to “the stat” about 1 in 4 of all women having been abused. I asked for sources for that assertion, but so far I have seen none. I respectfully suggest that saying “You know the stat, right?” and then refusing to provide support for “the stat” could be taken as condescending, since you seem to expect the other person to just accept your unsupported word on what should be public information.
To whomever it concerns: I’m more than happy to discuss and debate the facts, statistical and otherwise. It doesn’t require any name-calling or personal attacks like I’ve seen here.
Also, wrt women’s agency, I don’t see an answer to my question about your opinion on mandatory-arrest laws for domestic assault cases.
Last but not least, since I’ve asked for support for your views, I think it’s only fair that I provide some for my concerns: Check out http://oneangrygirl.net/antiporndisclaimer.html - she has some very interesting information to share about porn and other aspects of sex work.
Have a good day!
Jeff Deutsch
jeff_deutsch@hotmail.com
July 15, 2008 at 8:06 pm
I know bullshit when I smell it and I know overwhelming condescension when I hear it. I’m not going to waste my time engaging w/ you, Jeff - and I know you’ll say I’m not being fair, I’m being a hypocrite, blah blah. I’ve heard it all before. Just a few things - it doesn’t matter what your wording was on the pole dancing comment. Miss the point much? Why would you mention the possibility of me doing it for my boyfriend AT ALL? The fact that you saw fit to bring up that possibility, especially in a totally irrelevant context, is the problem. Also, do NOT assume I haven’t heard of One Angry Girl and all the other stuff you’ve referenced. Where do you think I’ve been the past ~6 years?
July 15, 2008 at 11:12 pm
One Angry Girl is an AVID anti sex work industry person. Her info is very likely to be slanted towards her agenda. Even big anti-porn academic Gail Dines admits there are “no good studies out there’. Oddly enough, I think when one is making opinions on sex workers, they should, oh, listen to sex workers…
Try Bound Not Gagged for a start…and something to think about?
http://renegadeevolution.blogspot.com/2008/05/more-important-animoto-video-than-my.html
August 3, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Er, Derek? May I ask why my comment was deleted from about a week ago, attempting to rebuke allecto, who has called you a rapist?
I was merely attempting to defend you from ridiculous, insane and slanderous accusations made by allecto, who has singled you out and demeaned you based on your sex (sound familiar?)
I don’t understand why you allow “allecto” to sit back and refer to you as a “rapist”, while deleting posts by me which attempt to simply defend you from said ridiculous claims.
[Removed by editor]
Jesus, I’m angry. Please give me an answer here.
August 3, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Jorb,
If you put down your real email address in that little box that asks you to do so, you would have found this in your inbox:
Hi Jorb,
Just letting you know I deleted your last comment that was directed at alecto. Just so it’s clear, I left her comment up because it was directed at myself; had it been at anyone else, I would have deleted it immediately. Nevertheless, I felt your comment didn’t actually say anything, but if you wanted to respectfully address her comment, I would be more than willing to leave your comment up. I hope you understand.
Best,
Derek
August 4, 2008 at 7:46 am
Okay. Okay.
Thanks. I’m sorry for getting so pissed off. I do apologize. Not to allecto, but to you for breaking rules.
Maybe this whole place/area really isn’t for me. I think I’m coming off as an MRA or antifeminist, which I’m not. But I’m new to these gender studies, and I just see all this anger and blame being constantly thrown around (not by any 1 person), usually at groups that I belong to. And then I go and read allecto’s blog, which I find- not a personal attack here, just IMO- completely ridiculous and just counterproductive… I don’t know. I know I’m getting too worked up over this.
I’m sorry. Maybe I should leave? I don’t want to disrupt the goings-on here.
August 4, 2008 at 10:37 am
I don’t think you should leave at all, but ultimately, that’s your choice. I feel like there’s a lot you can learn about feminism yet, and there are certainly a lot of places to learn about it. Either way, you’re welcome here so long as you remain respectful, and that applies to everyone, not just you.
Anyway, I do encourage you to read and participate in the discussion. Do make an effort to find things out for yourself, too. As much as some people will want to help you learn, it’s also difficult making the time to educate every person who asks a question they could have easily looked up themselves. Not to say you’ve asked those questions, but it’s just something to keep in mind if you choose to learn more about feminism. But again, you’re more than welcome to continue reading and discussing here if you like.
August 5, 2008 at 11:12 am
Out of your many posts, I enjoyed this one the most. This post made me reflect on my own thoughts, as they were very much similar to yours. Even though the topic of working in the sex trade is difficult to navigate, this post greatly helped me clarify thoughts of my own and I thank you for that! Like you said, it’s important to remember that we shouldn’t be working against eradicating the industry, but more so helping the women explore resources as they may not have had that opportunity before. As one woman who previously worked in the sex trade told me “You could be the one millionth person to help me, or the first person who actually cared about what I had to say.”
October 8, 2008 at 7:59 pm
I’m a dude, and I basically agree with Derek and Amber on this matter. I always have. I’m not sure why people can’t see that a society with legalized and regulated prostitution is still a bad thing when those societies (at least in the case of places like Amsterdam) have much LOWER rates of sexual assault, violence, and STD’s among sex workers and their customers.
For women who are involved in sex work due to past trauma, substance abuse, poverty, or whatever issues, then sure those issues need to be addressed. But let’s not forget the sex workers who are good at what they do, know that they are providing a necessary service, and are damn proud of it. Such women in this business might be few and far between, and even when they exist, their viewpoints aren’t brought forward much, because their work is so stigmatized and criminalized. Ironically, the stigma and criminalization only adds to - instead of takes away from - many of the problems (drug abuse, rape, etc.) that are associated with this form of work.
October 9, 2008 at 2:39 pm
[...] Maybe slowly but surely people will start to consider things that they previously had written off. I know it’s possible. It doesn’t happen in droves, but I truly do believe this type of [...]